Bite The Talk-Policy to Plate - Malawi on The Table - Episode 32 

Mark: Hello and welcome to Bite the Talk Podcast, where we explore the ideas, systems and leadership shaping the future of food systems across Africa and beyond. I'm your host Mark   Gachagua. Today we are heading to Malawi, often called the warm heart of Africa. 

And it's not just a nickname, Malawi is known for its hospitality, vibrant culture and one of Africa's most stunning natural features, Lake Malawi, which contains about 20% of the world's freshwater species. Agriculture is the backbone of the economy, employing over 70% of the population. Yet, like many countries, Malawi is navigating the complex challenge of transforming its food systems to be more resilient, inclusive and nutrition driven. 

But what makes Malawi particularly interesting right now is this. It is emerging as a leader in food systems governance, showing that transformation is not just about projects, but about how systems are coordinated, led and sustained. And that's exactly what we are diving into today. 
I'm joined by two incredible guests.  

First, Dr. Andrew Jamali, the director of the National Planning Commission. Andrew is a highly experienced socioeconomic development expert with over 22 years in policy, research and capacity building.  He has led major national milestones, including Malawi's first research agenda and brings deep expertise in food security, climate change and innovation led development. Dr. Andrew, welcome to the podcast.  

Dr. Jamali: Thank you so much, Mark. 

Mark:  I also joined by Vitowe Batch, team leader for the Step Up and TI Malawi projects at GIZ. Vitowe is a dynamic development leader with expertise in nutrition, WASH and systems strengthening. She works closely with the government and communities to translate policy into action and build sustainable and inclusive systems. Vitowe, welcome to the podcast.  

Vitowe Batch: Thank you, Mark. It's also good to be here. 

Mark: Yeah, just before we begin this wonderful discussion, I want to know what is your food story? You know, what was your favorite food growing up, Vitowe?  

Vitowe: Thank you, Mark. That's an interesting question. Actually, it takes me back to my formative years. And I'm like, hhmmm, did I have anything that I really used to enjoy growing up? I must say maybe even food systems started working within me whilst I was young. The fact that I never had a particular food, I would enjoy all types of food. But of course, you know, as a child, usually vegetables are an issue. So maybe I might say, well, that statement is not true that I liked everything. But to a greater extent, I liked every food. But I must say there's a traditional food that is called Zitumbua in the local language, and its banana fritters, maybe most people can resonate with. So, you use bananas and maize flour mixed together. And then it's fried using, of course, cooking oil, vegetable oil, and you produce a nice snack.  For me, I used to look forward to eating that snack, especially when I would visit my grandma in the village. Thank you, Mark.  

Mark: Fantastic. Did you say vitumbua?  

Vitowe: Zitumbua.  

Mark: Yes, called zitumbua with a Z.  

Vitowe: Exactly.  

Mark: Thank you. Thank you. I'm curious about that. Maybe that's something I should try when I visit Malawi.  How about you, Dr. Andrew? What did you enjoy?  

Andrew: Well, thank you so much, Mark, for that interesting question. Personally, I'm someone who likes vegetables. So, growing up for a main course of meal, I would go for fresh pumpkin leaves boiled in water and just adding raw tomatoes, a bit of pinch of a salt and having that with maize porridge, thick maize porridge.  In my country, we call it Nsima. Sometimes other people call it Ugali in Far East Africa. So that was my main course. If I want to enjoy eating, that would be my main course. But I like fruits. And one of the fruits that I love is avocado pears. I also fall for bananas. Yeah. So that's been my taste of food that I enjoy in Malawi here. Thank you. 

Mark: Thank you very much for giving us a snapshot of what you had. Actually, what you just described, maybe not in the form it is cooked, but all those ingredients are very popular in the western part of Kenya. So, we can relate with what you're saying.  

But now coming back to the discussion, I mean, today we are discussing about our food systems governance and how that looks like in Malawi.  And I want us to have a look, or even for the audience to benefit from this, to understand the national vision of Malawi when it comes to food systems. 

We have something we are calling Malawi 2063, and it sets a bold development vision for the country. Where does food systems transformation sit within this? And why has governance become such a central focus in Malawi?  


Dr. Jamali: Well, I mean, Mark, that's a very good question. Malawi has set itself to become an inclusively wealthy and self-reliant nation by 2063.  And that's the vision for the country. We were looking at people's lives being transformed, being self-reliant, and making sure that poverty is part of our story. And in that context, we have a vision that's looking at three pillars, agriculture, productivity, and commercialization.  We're looking at industrialization, including mining, and then urbanization. All these three pillars are anchored by five enablers.  

The first one of which is mindset change or mindset transformation, if you like.  And then there's effective governance systems and institutions, enhanced public sector performance. We're talking about private sector dynamism, economic infrastructure, human capital development, and environmental sustainability. Now, your question is about how and where does food system gets located in the country's vision? I mean, if you look at the first pillar itself, it's talking about agriculture, productivity, and commercialization.  Already, that's food. We are talking about producing food, and not only food, but also producing for export markets. And that's the commercialization bit of it. 

And then in the industrialization bit, which is the second pillar, we're looking at food processing. And that's the second block of food systems. When you're looking at food systems, you're looking at production, processing, distribution, consumption, and waste and loss management.  So already, the first pillar of the country's vision is speaking to the first block of the food systems transformation initiative. And then the second pillar, which is industrialization, where we have agri-processing, is focusing as well on the second block of food system transformation, which is processing. And then we have got the consumption bit, which is looking now at what kind of foods are being produced for people, aiming at what kind of transformation in their lives, be it livelihoods or be it health to do with diets and nutritious diets, so to speak, that is servicing human capital in Enabler where issues of population and health are confined.  And then the bit about waste and loss is actually fitting perfectly in the environmental sustainability in enabler number seven of our vision. Now, you can see that when we talk food systems in Malawi's context, we're already speaking our vision so much so that as you're implementing food systems initiatives in the country, like Vitowe mentioned about the transformative initiative, you are seamlessly implementing the country's vision, servicing different kind of pillars in enabler within the food systems block. Now, where is the transformation agenda fitting in that? So, you see that Malawi is in a precarious context where, as we talk about food security, our indicators are really not that good in shape. 

We've been battered with cyclones, a lot of fiscal mismanagement somehow, issues to do with also climatic change that is really impacting on us, some policy slippages to do with food access and food distribution markets and the like. All that has really manifested in the context of how food is produced, processed, distributed, consumed, and managed. Now, the transformation agenda is really to try address issues of food insecurity, issues of poor nutrition outcome, I mean, outlook, particularly for our young children. 

And that fits the context of transforming our food system in terms of what we are producing, whether it's diversified enough, the issues of processing, whether we are considering the nutrition 
part of it so that we account for the good health of our young people and the population at large.  

And then there's the issue of export. Malawi is an agriculture export-oriented country. 
And then when you talk about processing and distribution, already you're speaking to Malawi's context of the vision, where we're looking at producing not only for food, but also exporting to other markets. The idea is to improve the livelihoods of people, particularly those that are directly involved in the food system transformation agenda, those that are producing the food like the farmers, and those that are distributing the food like the private sector, and those that are really processing the food, we're talking about the industries, so to speak. The conversation about transforming food systems is in response to what Malawi is facing on the food security front, the nutrition front, the productivity front in terms of trade and exports, and the entire economy, so to speak, with regards to improving the quality of life for our people and their livelihoods, particularly in terms of wealth creation and self-reliance. In a nutshell, I'll summarize the question in that response. Thank you.  

Mark: Thank you very much, Andrew, for, you know, those wonderful details. Clearly, the vision of the country really links food systems and vice versa. And I really believe that implementation is the bridge to transformation. That's where the real development happens.  Now, Vitowe, from your perspective, working closely with implementation partners and communities and districts, how is this national vision being translated into action?  

Vitowe:  Thank you, Mark, for the question. As you have heard from Dr. Jamali, it was very elaborate in terms of what the country has put in place when it comes to realizing the national vision. There are a lot of things, and I'm glad, or we as GIZ, we are even glad because the vision itself provides us with a platform that we could support the government when it comes to ensuring that their food systems structures are strengthened. 

Let me begin by saying that we come into that space because the BMZ or the German corporation also has got a priority when it comes to ending hunger. So, one of the priority areas within the BMZ is to end hunger. And from that, looking at what the national vision also offers, it grants the German government to offer support to the Malawi government when it comes to the realization of the national vision. 

But let me also say that as GIZ, that also gives us an opportunity because, as you can see, there are proper linkages to the national vision. When it comes to looking at our vision, what does GIZ subscribe to? We subscribe to creating a future worth living. And if you are looking at the Malawi 2063, you are looking at a vision that is not just speaking today, but it's also looking at the future.  And that's what even food systems transformation means. We are not just focusing on what is the impact today, but we are also thinking of the future itself. Whether the current generation will be there or not, that's another question.  But it's important that we need to make a world worth living in for everybody. So, also basing on the principles of leaving no one behind, all those aspects come together. And that's what brings us closer also to implementation. 

And for GIZ, our work has been mainly through two projects. These are both financed by the German government. And I mean, they've got longer terms if I'm to unpack them. But if one is to simply recall what these two projects are called, one is called Step Up. Very easy. Think about a step.  So, for us, we are saying we are moving beyond what is currently there in terms of the transformation. And we also have another project that is called the TI. And both projects are focusing on food systems.  But when it comes to the actual implementation, the Step-Up project mainly focuses on strengthening government structures in terms of strengthening their capacity to be able to respond or to transform their own food systems. As you may be aware, the National Planning Commission, they work so closely with the Minister of Agriculture, but they are both based at the national level. And their focus is mainly on development of policies.  But we need to have instruments that now translate these policies into actions. So, for GIZ, we are supporting the government in the translation of these policies into actions, localizing them within the different decentral levels that we have in the country. And at the moment, of course, Malawi has got 28 districts.  And for our projects, we are working in three of these 28. But at the end of the day, it is also in our plans to scale up these interventions beyond the three districts. That is why we also have another area of focus where we are also gathering evidence or we are generating evidence that could feed into national level processes for purposes of scaling up.  And maybe even you may recall from the introduction that was provided by Dr. Jamali, he mentioned that he has a focus on research. And that's also one of the core areas within National Planning Commission that aligns properly in terms of what the government would want to achieve in terms of generating evidence. And we are there to support with this generation of evidence so that it informs national level processes. 

Let me also say that for the generation of evidence or for our project, we are saying it's a bottom-up approach. And what do we mean by that? We start our work from the district level and then feeding these processes into national level so that we can offer an opportunity for upscaling, learning from each other. Thank you, Mark. 

Mark: Yeah, thank you, Vitowe, for that wonderful explanation. I like the bottom-up approach to our listeners who are from Kenya. They really know what that means.  But honestly, I think in this context, it's about recognizing the efforts which could be made at the grassroots level and then moving up the ladder. And I think that way you're able to be in touch with the real challenges of the people and to kind of understand where the rubber meets the road. Now, coming back to you, Dr. Jamali, I think the other day I was just interacting with the Global Hunger Index report.  And I was just looking at a few countries in Africa. One, Kenya is ranked 103rd out of 123. And Malawi is doing slightly better. It is ranked 95th out of 123 countries. What concrete structures has Malawi put in place to drive food systems transformation?  

Dr. Jamali: Right. Thank you very much, Mark. In terms of structures, Malawi operates from policy front to strategic framework front. And then you've got the programs front where the interventions now are refined and then operationalized. So, at a higher level in terms of food systems governance in the country, the convener who was actually appointed by the state president in 2021 is the Minister of Agriculture. Get me right. I'm not talking about ministry. I'm talking about Minister of Agriculture as the convener. 

Now, what that role entails is he was expected to convene all actors in the food system space to deliberate and bring to the fore the issues that are impacting on Malawi's food production, processing, distribution, consumption, and management. And that's the food systems itself. And then having unpacked all that, what strategies would be put in place to transform how food is produced, processed, consumed, and even managed to prevent losses and waste? And then below that structuring where we have the minister whose critical role is convening, we have the National Steering Committee that is cross-sector in nature comprising government ministries and department heads. 
And that is permanent secretary level with heads of missions and corporations and development partners in that level. So, it's called the National Food Systems Steering Committee. And its key mandate is to provide policy regulatory guidance on how the programming itself on food systems has to go in the country. 

Below that structure, we have the Technical Working Group on Food Systems. It also comprises government ministries, agencies, and departments. And we're looking also at development partners. 
Now we have other groups like research and academic institutions, the private sector, media, the community members that are expected to be part of the conversation to now decode the technical insights and operational aspects to do with transforming food systems. The key mandate for this Technical Working Group is to provide a program of action, identify resources, provide capacities across the actors in the food system space, but also help to provide a picture 
on how Malawi is moving in terms of transforming its food systems. And that's monitoring, evaluation, learning, and accountability. 

So below that technical committee, we have what we call Sub-Technical Working Groups. And their role are to really look at the technical details associated with food systems policy, food systems research, food systems monitoring and evaluation, resource mobilization, as well as capacity building. So, there are about six technical capacity or technical committees operationalizing the country's food system transformation agenda. 

All this structure is now at the central level. And we have made efforts to cascade this kind of structuring to the district level. And that's the local planning area level, where we're looking at districts coming up with much sectoral committees that is comprising all representative bodies that have to do with development planning at the district council.  So, you're talking about sectoral planners. You're also talking about non-government organizations doing their programs in the districts, like the colleagues like GIZ, who are supporting some of the initiatives. There are also local level private sector engaged in agencies that are also part of the Committee on Food Systems Transformation. 

So that's at the local level. And the idea is that they should take an active role in making sure that food systems initiatives are inclusive, they are participatory and moving forward towards localizing the agenda in the context within which they are. So that's the kind of institutional and organizational architecture on the operationalization of Malawi's food system transformation. 

Mark: Thank you so much, Andrew, for that explanation. You've actually even answered the other question. I wanted to ask you; how do we link the national to the local? Because I find that marriage to be a very, very healthy marriage when it comes to governance systems.  But to get a clear picture of how this governance looks like, Vitowe, if you don't mind, you can let us know, you know, what does food systems governance look like at the district level, at the subnational level? How does it look like?  

Vitowe: All right! Thank you, Mark. Maybe just to add to what Dr. Jamali has just shared in terms of the district committees. So, we've got different sectors coming in together, having conversations around food systems. So, it's a multisectoral platform, because we realize that without coordination, these sectors could operate in silos. And if they continue to operate in silos, it means we are missing out on the mark when it comes to transforming our food systems at the end of the day. 

So, in terms of the food system structures, that's how they are looking like in the districts. But at the same time, let me say that they also have TORs that are developed. So, let me begin by saying that we've got, of course, different sectors, yes, but which sectors are we looking at? Let me say, think about each and every sector that you would think of within food systems, ranging from transport, think about health, think about trade, think about gender. 

What else am I missing? All those that you can think of that are relevant. They all come together, sit in one space, and deliberate on issues that are very critical for them when it comes to food systems. We appreciate the fact that they each have their own mandates, but it is good to see that besides their own mandates, they all converge at some point and have conversations that are critical for transforming their food systems. 

So, it's actually interesting for us as GIZ to sit in those spaces as well, to be able to support the districts, steer their food systems in that direction of seeing some transformation around it. And for us at the end of the day, what we are trying to see is that we are building a system that aligns actors, priorities, and investments. Because yes, you could be operating in your own spaces because you've got different mandates.  But it is also important at the end of the day that you come together, even just to look at the different resources that you are having in your sector, and which actors are there, and what are the priorities that you have put in place.  

Mark: Thank you very much, Vitowe, for, you know, unpacking, or rather speaking about the district level or, you know, food systems governance at the sub-national level, and how that looks like. I want us to shift the gears a bit and move towards financing and sustainability.   

Today in the world, we are talking about conflict. We're talking about climate. Dr. Andrew earlier on mentioned about the cyclones which were there. We're also talking about dwindling donor aid. We're asking ourselves questions about sustainable financing. Do we finance our food systems locally, domestically? What can we do with development finance institutions? And many, many, many other discussions.  How are these food systems being sustained beyond the project support that we usually have? How does that look like, Vitowe?  

Vitowe: Thank you, Mark. You actually raise an important point when it comes to sustainability. Because indeed, just like most of the countries, Malawi is one of the countries that has also been affected by donor support, the dwindling.  Major players that used to exist in the space are no longer there. But I guess even for us, we are kind of lucky, I would put it, that we still have German support in the country when it comes to the topic of food systems, just showing that it's still relevant when it comes to their core areas of support. So, when it comes to GIZ, of course, as well, when we are implementing our projects, you always have to think of sustainability, not only in the course of implementation or at the phasing out of a project, but even when it comes to the developmental stages. 

So step-up projects, including the TI, they are relatively new projects in the country. Of course, the TI has been in the country for about three years. And when it comes to even the sustainability aspect for the TI, it looked mostly around engaging local actors and not necessarily looking at international players, but capacitating local actors so that they are able to advocate for food 
systems in the country. 

So, when I talk about local actors, what do I mean? We've got a Civil Society for Nutrition Alliance, in short, CISONA, and we also have a research institute, which is very local. It's called MAPAATA. I can't say the name in full.  I might lose some listeners, but it's very easy to recall the name MAPAATA. And of course, we also have got the civil society that looks at agriculture. And for the TI, it really is working so closely with these local actors in terms of building their capacities so that they can do a lot of advocacy work. They can also engage in evidence generation.  

Same thing with the second project that I'm talking about, step-up. Step-up has also focused mostly in what we call working with existing structures, more around institutionalization.  So, we are not here to create spaces that are outside within the government system, but we are working with structures that are already existing within the government sector. That way, it means we already have human resource that is already paid for by the government, the wage builder is already there within the government. And then we are also in the district councils that are already kind of already in existence. That makes it easier for us to function.  

So, we are leveraging on existing platforms or priorities within the government. At the same time, we think more of ownership. Ownership in a sense that as much as we've got GIZ supporting these processes, we are not in the lead. Even the fact that we've got a National Planning Commission here is an example that GIZ is not in the lead. He talked about all these technical working groups, subcommittees at both national and the central level.  It's not GIZ that is developing agendas for these meetings. It is the government that is leading all these processes. We are just there supporting in terms of systems thinking, building their capacities along those areas, and of course, using certain instruments.  Of course, when it comes to financing, just to kick start processes within the government system so that they can easily pick up. So, in terms of sustainability, I must say that it's really thought through at the beginning, and it's taken throughout in the process. So, there's nothing that we are doing on our own, but it's something that is being said by the government, and we are just following their agenda. Thank you. 

Mark: Thank you, Vitowe, and it's nice to always see the government leading. Speaking about evidence and learning, Dr. Jamali, you are a researcher. I mean, you have a very good understanding about all these things. When you talk about evidence, when you talk about data, what role does research and evidence play in guiding Malawi's food systems transformation?  

Dr. Jamali: Right. Thank you very much, Mark. First of all, we need to find out why do we want research to find its space in the food systems conversation and programming. So, research gives us the basis for innovation. And why do we have to be innovative? The multiplicity and complexity of challenges confronting the transformation agenda of food systems requires innovation, requires systems thinking that is based on understanding the context and responsive to the contextual details. That requires research.  And again, if we are to weaver through the kind of challenges that are really flooding the food systems programming, whether you call it climate change, the issues to do with know the effects of variation of climatic patterns, weather, temperature and rainfall, what kind of productivity engagements we need to put in place to make sure that we are swimming above the waters, that calls for innovation, that calls for research to unearth the insights, to unearth new ways of thinking and new ways of doing things that are anchored on what would prove to have worked on the ground. That's where now food systems research comes into place. One key important aspect that we need to put in the forefront is to provide kind of a direction for such kind of research. 
And that's where the research agenda is very key in terms of providing guidance on what kind of research technologies and innovations would be required to solve what problems in the context of food systems. You just asked a question about financing and sustainably so for the projects or programs that are being supported by development partners in the context of food systems for us to come up with innovative ways of localizing financing, strategizing on how financial resources could be generated. That requires research that requires a lot more of systems approach to understanding the complexities associated with food systems programming. 

And then we talk about in the context of the changing geopolitical context, in terms of financing, in terms of prioritization of programming, in the development space, the kind of support that, you know, countries in the global south, you know, source out from countries in the global north. That calls for an adaptive and mitigative approach to how we are structuring our programs to do with food systems. What do I mean by adaptive? So, you would see that the kind of resourcing now that's actually encompassing development operationalization is shifting from grants, from aid to trade.  So, Malawi has to think about what it would trade for, for what resources to support what programs with other agencies of development, be it bilateral, multilateral agencies. That calls for research. It entails that we have to delve deeper into understanding what our financing landscape is like. What are the prioritizations of the financing agencies in terms of their support.  And how do we align the programming in terms of food systems to fit with the interests of such kinds of organizations? That requires research.  

And then there's the issue of coming up with technologies that should support the way we do things, easing the business, and sometimes maybe fast tracking the way we do things, particularly in terms of production. There is need for some technologies that have to be upscaled. That requires research.  

There is need for some research that should support in the development of equipment and supplies that should support processing of food, issues to do with maybe how we package food enough to make it nutritious and safe, how we preserve the quality and quantity of food in the context of adverse climatic challenges that are shaping the conditions that, you know, within which food must be kept, preserved, and perhaps maybe utilized. We need research for all that. 

So, research plays a very critical role, even in the context of what governance mechanisms would work for the context of Malawi, be it at a central level or at the local level. How best can we make sure that the structures are operational and functional enough to sustain food systems transformation on the ground? And again, what indicators would tell us that we are making progress with regards to the transformative agenda itself? It's not only about food security. It's not only about nutrition. 
It's also about the improvements of the livelihoods of people, because we're talking about inclusive wealth creation. Those that are involved in production, processing, distribution, managing the losses and waste, how do they get their returns through their participation in the food systems agenda or food systems programming? All that is research. So, evidence that is generated from research will help us to shape our thinking, shape our priorities, guide us into localizing opportunities and harnessing the challenges into things that would work out for our context in terms of transforming our food systems. That is research. Thank you.  

Mark: Thank you, Dr. Jamali. You've really spoken to research and learning. Vitowe, what lessons from Malawi's governance journey on food systems are most relevant for other countries? Because earlier on, we've talked about the action which is being taken at the local level, being linked to what is being done at the national level. Now we want to flip that and think about what is being done at the national level that our global partners or other countries can actually borrow and implement. How does that look like, Vitowe?  

Vitowe: All right. No, thank you, Mark. But I would want to start responding by advertising our three districts that we work in, because that also offers an opportunity for learning.  Since we are talking about learning here, if our listeners could be asking themselves to say, oh, if we are to go to Malawi, then which districts do we go and learn from? Let me say that we are implementing our projects in three districts. Actually, they are spread within the three regions in Malawi.  

We've got Zimba, which is in the north.  We've got Dedza, which is in the center. And we call Dedza the food basket of Malawi. And it's quite interesting that one would come and see that nutrition or standing rates in this district are high, and yet it's called the food basket of Malawi. The name of the district is Dedza. So, one would be surprised to come and learn from the district. What is it that is happening in the district? And yet, you know, it's a food basket for the country.  And another district, the third district we work in is Chikuawa. Chikuawa is in the southern region. And it's one of the districts that is usually prone to climatic shocks. Whether you're thinking about floods or dry spells, this is one of the districts that is really affected. And for us, even just having presence in such type of a district offers us an opportunity to see what is it that actually works in that particular district, depending on the different exposures that they have. Because you might be aware that I think it's a common thing in Africa, and Malawi is not spared, that we've got monotony when it comes to certain food crops. 

And for us, we are heavily dependent on maize. And we are consuming or growing maize regardless of the weather conditions in that particular district. And yet, the maize does not even permit to be grown in such type of weather conditions.  So Chikuawa is one of those districts which is usually affected. They receive short rains, and yet they continually grow maize. So, it's one of, I would say, one of an interesting district to learn from in terms of how the food system is going to transform. Also, just to have this mindset change. So, all that, I was just trying to explain in terms of what lessons can be drawn from the Malawi governance journey. Just even thinking about the choice that we made when it comes to what particular district we work in. 

So besides that, governance matters. This is one of our important lessons. Without governance, it would be very important to align actors, priorities, and investments, and also just to ensure that coordination does exist and sectors are not working in silos.  So, if we are ready to transform our food systems, regardless wherever you are, I feel it's not just about Malawi context. It's important that we also set aside resources that strengthen or even create governance structures that are supposed to tackle food systems transformation. But at the same time, if we are to localize our actions, it's also very important that the central level has got the ownership in terms of transforming food systems. 

And the central level, I'm not even just looking at, say, the formal structures that are set by the government, but I'm even also looking at the community level themselves. I think I'll not do justice if I don't mention that through the TI, the Transformative Initiative Project, we've worked so closely with communities in developing their own visions through what we call the visioning methodology. It has granted us an opportunity to interact with communities, to just give them even the platform that they could process what it means when we say we would want to transform our own food systems. 

And you'd be interested to see the type of knowledge that does exist or the type of aspirations and ambitions that different communities have. And these speak even to the Malawi 2063. And gender is also very important within the food systems.  And this gender, usually we talk about gender, thinking about only the woman that is in the community. Yes, which is very good. But I feel like sometimes we even forget about the woman that is working in the government spaces who is formerly employed. 
This female, what kind of support are they receiving so that they can also input into the food systems, you know, dialogues and that they do not shy away because their input is also addressing the challenges that the woman in the community is experiencing. Because our understanding is that this woman, if they are capacitated, whatever they will bring in as their input to the whole conversation will be relating to something that actually happens at the community level.  

And the last point would be on the focus on the civil society networks.  It's very important also to engage with civil society networks because, I mean, yes, governments can engage in advocacy work, but they can't speak against their employer, right? So, when we engage these civil society networks, they act as the voice of the local masses. And at the end of the day, regardless of whatever topic they are tackling, we would be able to see transformation within the food system. So, in a nutshell, those are the areas that I would think of as lessons from Malawi's governance journey. Thank you.  

Mark: Thank you, Vitowe, for unpacking for us, you know, issues to do with the lessons learned and mentioning that a lot can be taken from the implementation at the district level and a few tips can be gotten from that and be applied somewhere else. Now, looking forward, you know, into the future, looking ahead, what are the key milestones Malawi is working towards, Dr. Jamali? 
 
Dr. Jamali: Thank you so much, Mark. I mean, we can't go far from, you know, wishing that the objectives of our transformation on food systems are the future that we're pursuing in that regard. If you look at the goals of Malawi's food system transformation, it's basically to make sure that we are self-food sufficient. As I spoke in my earlier conversation that we are still food insecure, like towards the end of last year, almost 25% of our population was actually food insecure.  Now that speaks volumes about the functionality of our food systems. So, looking to the future, we want a Malawi that is self-food sustaining, able to produce, able to manage our food resources, commensurate with the demand from the population. But also, we're looking at a future where Malawi is able to weaver through adverse climatic challenges and be able to sustain ourselves and to survive, even though we've been battered. 

I mean, when you look at the past, maybe five years, Malawi is having frequent bouts of cyclones that are battering it every rainy season. That has direct implications on our food production capacity. Now the issue now is how do we weaver through such kind of context? And our future is basically to challenge the climatic outcomes that are battering the country seasonally. 
And that entails maybe augmenting on our science and technology so that the crops that we are planting and maybe generating from the farms are able to withstand the adverse climatic conditions. But again, we look at the processing part of it, which should help in terms of preserving our food, even in times where our farm has not done well. We should have sufficient food reserves that can be preserved without suffering losses in terms of rotting food and stuff like that. 
Again, we're looking at a future where Malawi's productivity base is actually propelled by a transformative food system. What do I mean by that? So, we're looking at food systems providing the motivation for improved road infrastructure, improved communication infrastructure for markets, improved perhaps maybe energy infrastructure for the country. Why? Because there is a justified reason that if we have sufficient energy infrastructure, we should be able to process our foods, even to export for other markets. 

If we have sufficient road networks, it means we are connecting markets within the country and across the region through which we could actually sell our outcomes from our food systems. So, you can see the linkage between the sectors there. You're talking about agriculture as a sector, then linking up to the transport sector through the food avenue or through the food orientation in that regard. 
So, we're looking at a future where food is actually steering growth in the country's development agenda, whereby agro-processing is actually supported by a commercially oriented agriculture sector. And then finally, we're looking at a competitive human capacity developed in the country. What do I mean by that? If you look at our nutritional indicators, they're not that impressive, even falling below the regional averages in terms of stunting, underweight, wasting.  And that really speaks volumes about the cognitive and technical capacities that our children exposed to such kind of conditions are likely to have. In a way, we are actually compromising on our own technical competencies in future. So how can you use food and food systems in this regard to deliver a country where we are building a competitive human capacity base, where our young people will be innovative, they'll be technologically apt, and be able to challenge any context that actually befalls the country, but also to compete with the global world in terms of technologies and innovations. 

That's the Malawi that we want. And then when we look at the industries, we're looking at Malawi pioneering homegrown kind of initiatives and innovations that are actually challenging the climatic feedback, the fiscal slippages that we're experiencing, even the dwindling donor financing. If we can have a private sector that is actually ticking and augmented in terms of its productivity and investments, Malawi should not be depending on donor financiers.  They should depend on a functional private sector that is operating without the support of bilateral agencies, a private sector that is operating without the support of perhaps maybe development partners in the context. So that's the kind of future that Malawi is looking at. And that's a foresight that we are having as we are building our food systems in the confines of our national vision vis-a-vis Malawi 2063, which is our vision, but also responding to the regional development frameworks like the comprehensive program on agriculture, development, the sustainable development goals.  We should see ourselves moving in a direction where Malawi becomes inclusively wealthy, self-reliant, and sustainably able to weaver through the challenges that we can actually confront. Thank you.  

Mark: I thank you, Dr. Jamali, for that explanation about the future outlook. You've mentioned Malawi being self-sufficient. You've talked about food reserves. And we've also mentioned that it is important to have transformative food systems. This is all nice. Vitowe, from your team, what do you think? What should we be on the lookout for? Let's say if Malawi gets governance right, what changes will citizens see by, let's say, 2063?  

Vitowe: Thank you, Mark. That's really an interesting question. And as I'm reflecting on that question, also with regards to the conversation that we've been having, I feel like we've really spoken about governance as if it has been an easy journey. Let me say that it comes with its own challenges or experiences, but those that still give you the drive to continue working in that space. And why do I say that? You usually find that partners are not willing to invest in the space of governance, because governance usually, I mean, you're talking about building soft skills, yeah? If you're looking at capacities and those aspects, it's usually the soft skills. 

And one question is to say, what is it that we are going to see at the end of the day? And now I would like to connect that thought with the question that you have posed to say, what changes will citizens be able to see, say, by 2030? Because there's been some work around food systems 
governance. I think one of the major outcomes would have to be household nutrition, improvement in those areas. Why do I say that? If we've got all these sectors coming in together, joining efforts, aligning their priorities, and putting together their resources towards food systems transformation, just that one aspect that I've talked about is just governance itself. 

And then that would translate to action being taken beyond the offices now. Now, taking it down to the communities, the skills that they have gained, who has gained these skills? I'm looking at government officers, government counterparts. The champions that are supposed to now see the transition, that have got the technical know-hows in terms of what does it require for a household or an individual to improve in terms of nutrition. 

So improved household nutrition is one aspect that really comes to mind to say, this is something that citizens can see change in. And also, what Dr. Jamali just alluded to, to say when it comes to stunting, Malawi is really lagging behind. We still have a lot of work to do.  So, we are hoping that all the work that is being done towards transforming food systems using the governance space will be able to also be shown within our indicators. And of course, one would say, but citizens are not looking at indicators necessarily. That's why we are saying nutrition household also have to be seen at the end of the day. 

And of course, at the same time, we also have to see improved livelihoods in the communities. There's a lot that is happening within Malawi and livelihoods are hugely affected. But we are hoping that once the governance structures are, not once they're in motion, because they are in motion, but we give the structures time for functionality, then we will be able to see that at least livelihoods are improving within those spaces that government structures do exist. 

Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Vitowe. I mean, that's really nice. You've talked about improvement in household nutrition and improvement in livelihoods. And that's really nice. Since you still have the mic, what would be a parting shot when we talk about transforming food systems using a governance approach?  

Vitowe: Alright. Thank you, Mark. I mean, we've talked a lot. I mean, using a lot of Jargons food systems transformation, talking about stunting, livelihoods, resilience, research, evidence generation.  But my parting shot would be if there's one thing that I would want listeners to also pick from the whole conversation is that it's important to work in the space of governance. Governance is very critical. We cannot talk about food systems transformation if we do not have structures that can coordinate food systems.  So, we'll continue to operate in silos. If we don't set aside resources targeting improvements or strengthening food systems as structures. So, my plea or my message out there is, you know, let's set aside resources that have a focus in this area of strengthening governance when it comes to food systems.  And its high time that we really walk the talk when we say we are not working in silos. We are talking about multisectoral coordination. What does it really mean? So, it is very important that each and every country, I would say, and this does not even just speak about Africa, but it goes beyond also depending on the different needs, depending on the particular continent or countries.  So, let's really do some work on food systems, governance strengthening, and let's put effort around it. That is going to realize some impact, especially when it comes to household nutrition or even just issues of food security, because this is human dignity.  

Mark: Thank you, Vitowe. I will quote you from now on, and your quote is, we cannot talk about food systems transformation if we don't have structures to coordinate food systems transformation. What a wonderful quote or wisdom from Vitowe. Dr. Jamali, how about you? What is your parting shot?  

Dr. Jamali: Well, I mean, not far off from what Vitowe is saying, but I think we need to be looking at the human face of all that we're doing.  We can have appropriate governance structures in place from the central to the local level, but I think the aspect of tracking down how this governance is connecting to implementation of interventions by all actors and how this is contributing to the overall transformative agenda in terms of, one, building the capacities of communities and people to produce food, sustainably use that food, and manage it without losses and waste. And then the key indicators of a function of food systems are critically three. You're looking at improved food security and nutritional outcomes, and then the improvement of livelihoods, but also the country's capacity to produce and export. 

These are very key. And I think from my end, you cannot divorce food systems from development. Food systems is the development agenda itself, because without food, they will not be able to process.  Without food, we will not be able to come up with maybe interventions that address climatic whatever. Things must start from the capacitation of people on the basic needs of life. Man cannot talk about policies without looking at how that policy is providing life to him through food.  The sustainability of all efforts to do with governing the food systems would be clearly tested by how much transformation is observed in the lives of people that we are serving and the improvement in our socioeconomic conditions as a country.  

Mark: Thank you, Dr. Jamali. Again, a lot of wisdom being dropped here. You cannot divorce food systems from the development agenda. Once again, thank you both. Thank you, Dr. Jamali, and thank you, Vitowe, for sharing your wonderful, wonderful insights. And one thing is clear. What 
stands out from this conversation is that food systems transformation is not just about projects. 

It's not just about ideas and programs. It's about governments and how that shapes the course of food systems transformation. At the end of the day, we want to see are our people well fed?  
Do they have something in their cupboard? Are their children crying of hunger or are they happy going back to school with a stomach which is not empty? Another thing is that Malawi is showing us that when systems align across ministries, districts, and also among partners, real transformation becomes possible. 

Thank you, Andrew and Vitowe, for sharing your insights and leadership. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. Until next time, keep Biting The Talk!