Mark: Hello and welcome to Bite The Talk, where we explore the ideas, strategies, and policies transforming how we grow, share, and consume food. I'm your host, Mark Gachagwa. Today, we are unpacking a concept that's becoming increasingly central to how we think about the future of food, adopting a systems approach.

What does it mean to look at food and agriculture through a systems lens? How can this approach help us to create healthier diets, more resilient food systems, and fairer outcomes for people and the planet? And to help us make sense of it all, I'm joined by one of the world's leading voices on this topic, Dr. Corrina Hawkes. Corinna is the director of FAO, Division of Agri- Food Systems and Food Safety, and a globally recognized expert in food systems transformation. Over the past two decades, she has worked at the interface between research, policy, and advising national governments and cities, UN agencies, and international organizations on strategies to improve their food systems and nutrition outcomes.

Before joining FAO, she served as the director of the Center for Food Policy at Citi, University of London, and a co-chair of the Global Nutrition Report. Her work bridges science and action, always with a focus on creating food systems that enable people to live healthier lives and increase equity and sustainability. Corinna, welcome to the podcast.

Corrina: Thank you so much, Mark. It's a real pleasure to be here and to talk about a topic that's so close to my heart.

Mark: Yes, yes. It's so, so nice to have you. And before we get into systems thinking, which I think is a very important topic, I'd love our listeners to learn a thing or two about you. How did you, you know, what drew you into the world of food systems?

Corrina: Well, Mark, it's thanks for the question. I've been passionate about food for a long time and grew up around good food. I loved eating good food and had the great privilege of having access to that. But what led me from food to actually thinking about food systems or agri-food systems, as we say at FAO, really began when, and it was around the early 1990s.

Heavens, that's a long time ago now. And I was working at an organization. In fact, I was volunteering at an organization called Sustain the Alliance for Better Food and Farming.  And they were producing a set of reports called food facts, where they were tracing what was happening to that food from farm to fork. And I was assigned to work on the food facts on lettuce. And so, it was tracing the journey of a lettuce from the farm all the way to the fork.  And it was looking at the nutritional outcomes. It was looking at the environmental implications. It was looking at the livelihoods.  It was looking at the economy. And I was so drawn in by that. This is absolutely fascinating that the food that is on our plate has this history. It has this geography. It has all of these aspects that lay behind the plate. So, for me, it was like a mystery.

I love detective stories. It was like a mystery of where the food had come from that was on our plate. And later on, after I'd moved to the United States and I was teaching at New York University on environment, food and nutrition, I began to delve into the academic literature on this topic, and I discovered a whole world of academic study done by sociologists, on commodity chain analysis. What academics were looking at was the network of labor and production processes that lead to this finished commodity, if you like, that's on the plate. There's this whole story behind it. I love a good story. And for me, I was really drawn into this by such a good story, but also with the understanding that this was kind of important.
These were big economies, big economic questions, big environmental issues, big nutrition issues, issues of equity and livelihood. So, for me, I was really drawn in by the story of food from farm to fork.

Mark: Yeah, so thank you so much, Corinna. And I do love detective stories, you know, finding out. And I think your investigation into this area has really benefited us, you know, in terms of your contribution to the society.

We want to understand the systems approach now much a simple way. What exactly is a systems approach in the context of food and agriculture? 

Corrina: A systems approach, Mark, is about making decisions in about food and agriculture that can consider the connections with other parts of the system and interrelated system. When we think about agri-food systems that has all of these different components that involved in bringing food from farm to fork, the processing components, the farm components, the retailing components, it involves people, many, many people, involves technologies.

Agri-food system involves policies and it involves shifting the focus from these components of the system to looking at the relationships involved. So, when we're making a decision, we're thinking, okay, so what relationships matter that might be affected by the decision that I take? So, it's about shifting the focus from the components of systems to the relationships that are involved, the relationships between farm and fork, the relationships between people, the relationships between places with interrelated systems, between systems, practices and norms and values. So, let's just say that we're trying to improve the nutrition or the healthiness of the diet of households in a poor urban neighborhood. if you put into a solution into place that says, okay, they're not eating a healthy diet, I'm going to put into place a solution which is going to educate and therefore that will have then the impact of them eating more of the healthier food because they'll be more educated about it.

So, you do that and then you find that that's not solving the problem because you forgot to look at the interconnection between the household and the food environment surrounding that household where food may be expensive, nutritious food may be expensive or it may be unsafe or it may be not widely available and the unhealthier food may be more available and cheaper. So, you say, okay, this approach is not working. So, then you say, I'm going to give a subsidy for the food that appears to be unaffordable.  So, if you were to change and introduce a more affordable fruit and vegetable without thinking about whether that's culturally acceptable, again, you end up taking an action that doesn't work. So, it's really about taking actions that consider all of the relationships which matter in order to have impact on the ground. That's what a systems approach means in general, a process of decision-making that considers the different and relevant interconnections that are involved.

Mark: Fantastic, Corinna. I think I like what you mentioned. It's the relationship between the systems approach; it's the relationship between the farm and the fork.  And what you're actually saying, it's we need to zoom out and zoom out again so that we can see the whole picture, including all the connections and relations, not just one piece of the puzzle, right?

Corrina: Exactly, at the moment, we're facing a situation in the Middle East with oil prices as a result of conflict and other dynamics. And there's nothing like a crisis to really show how everything is connected, that what happens far away from the household matters from what's on my plate. The price of oil affects the supply of fertilizer that has profound impact for the cost of food processing, for the transport of food.

That means that what's happening that may be very close to home for some of your listeners, it may be further away. I'm sitting in Rome at the moment, but it matters for all of us. And this is a case of where there's a relationship between agri-food systems and an interrelated system, in this case, the energy system.  These are profoundly interconnected. And what happens is that if we don't have the foresight to think of these connections and think about future generations, we don't have the chance to preempt them. So, this is a very future-focused agenda.  

It's about having foresight. It's about thinking about young people, which by the way is why I think young people really need to be engaged in this agenda, because it is about future proofing. Now, if you think about what's happening at the moment with the price of oil and the conflicts that are going on in the Middle East and in other parts of the world, you're saying, okay, I need to now make a decision about building the resilience and building food security that perhaps diversifies my supply chains.  So, maybe as a policy, a strategic policy choice, I need to think about supporting local agri-food systems as well as global markets so that we can have both. We need to think about alternative ways of generating energy in agri-food systems, such as using food waste and biogas and so on. So, it's very important really for future proofing to see this whole picture and therefore to make better decisions that are going to be right for today's generation, but also future generations.

Mark: Fantastic. And I think, Corrina, you've actually touched on the question I wanted to ask you. You've just brought on the relevance of why these systems approach matters today more than ever.  I know the food systems today are more complex than they were years ago, if I'm not wrong. I don't know if you have another reason that you can share with us and the listeners of why these systems approach actually matters today more than ever.

Corrina: Yes. Well, there's a couple of really important reasons.

Mark: Yeah.

Corrina: One of the key aspects of a systems approach in food and agriculture in particular is that there are these multiple outcomes of agri-food systems, that there's the economic aspect, there's the environmental aspect, there's the nutrition aspect, there's the equity aspects, and all of these objectives are legitimate and all of them matter.  And there are people working in all of those different sectors doing so many good things, whether they're trying to increase GDP from agriculture, from their country, they're trying to address climate change, they're trying to support youth inclusion. Just imagine what could happen if all of these currently fractured and fragmented good activities were brought together towards a shared vision. What happens is that the good work is siloed.

What a systems approach does enables us to bring together the fragmentation and enable us by developing a shared vision, this is collectively what we want to achieve. We'll be able to have people say all of the activities in the system; this is the role and responsibility that I have to deliver to this goal. And maybe in doing that, they think, you know what, what I'm doing can also help that goal too.

Perhaps I can make some allies here. I can make some friends and making friends and allies in this world is always a good thing. And so, it's about the fact there's so many good things going on, but they're too fragmented. It's bringing it together.

The second issue about why it matters more than ever now is because we are in a situation of greater financial constraint with a lot of instability. I mentioned some of this earlier.  It's political, geopolitical, economic instability, environmental instability, all kinds of instability constrained around our financing world at the moment where there's been really a permanent shift, a structural shift in the way that donor funding is being allocated. So, we're in a situation of constraint and the systems approach is actually about being more efficient because it's about reducing duplication, aligning in the same direction, being more coherent in our policies. So, we're not spending our time undermining each other.  We're not spending our time taking reductionist approaches that don't work. We're being much more efficient and much more effective. So yes, there is an investment involved in doing, taking this approach. There is a shift that needs to happen, but it is more efficient. It is more effective and it enables us to align a currently fragmented landscape, all the good work that is going on. It's just a win, win, win.

Mark: I like that. A win, win, win. And I feel like the systems approach really helps us to have a joint vision of all the work that we do in agri-food systems. And it brings us together. We are told that unity is strength. And Corrina, I'm thinking, we must have a few principles that will guide us through the systems approach. Could you walk us through some of these key principles of systems thinking in the context of food systems?

Corrina: Absolutely. And the first, there's a few I'd like to mention. And the first couple are really universal. It's about embracing complexity. I just mentioned this. It's about working with the complexity of agri-food systems, not against it.  As I've said, agri-food system is made up of many, many components. Everything is connected. They're inherently complex. Now you use the word complexity with some audiences. And it frightens people. They're like, I can't deal with complexity. My life's complicated enough. And they're right. People's jobs are hard. People are short of resources. They're busy. They're short of time. Their job is really, really tough. And so, it seems it's too complicated.

It's just not realistic in my context to do this. But the fact is, it is reality. We have to acknowledge that complexity is, it's not, we're not making a choice that it's complex. It just is complex. And so, I think there is a bit of a mindset shift to say, actually, by embracing complexity, I can do more good. I can be more effective. I can be more efficient.
And that in essence is about understanding this interconnectedness and understanding that when other people take an action, it affects us. So, if we all take a systems approach, then it means that what other people are doing can actually is more likely to help us rather than harm us. So. this holistic perspective tells us far more than examining these individual parts in isolation.

The second is about relationships. Again, this issue that a systems approach involves identifying, making, modifying key relationships, a relationship between farm and fork, between people, between places, between the short term, the long term, and about saying it's focusing on these relationships that helps us see where the real leverage for transformation lies. And the third one though is particularly important in the context of food systems transformation, because the food systems transformation is ultimately about making a food secure world where everyone is properly fed, nutritiously fed and in good health.  But that requires considering the different outcomes, the multiple outcomes, the environment, the economy, the nutrition, the food safety, et cetera. And I think this principle of systems thinking, which for me is actually the most important in food and agriculture, is seeing beyond your own mandate. It's actually saying my job is to do healthy diets.  My job is to do the economy. But I'm going to be able to see that by thinking beyond my mandate to other people's mandates is actually going to help me. And that's a really critical principle of systems thinking.

And then finally, it's about acting strategically. A really important principle is about finding strategic entry points where places in the system where targeted action can spark broader lasting change, such as converting a subsystem that just isn't working very well in a system that is otherwise working well. Just making a change in that subsystem can enable the whole system to work.  This is about getting the whole system to work towards delivering those outcomes. So, you've got, in essence, it's the ability to see beyond our mandate, recognizing the multiple outcomes the system must deliver, understanding the relationships that shape those outcomes and act in ways that catalyze change at scale. And when we do that, then we really might be getting somewhere with unlocking the potential for transformation.

Mark: Indeed, indeed. And I like what you mentioned, you know, a mindset shift, you know, because this is not easy. And Corinna, you've worked with people and I know sometimes change is not the easiest thing to do, but we'll get to that, we'll get to that.

What changes or shifts are we aiming for when adopting a systems approach, you know, so that we can just clarify and help our listeners? You know, what shifts are we aiming for when adopting a systems approach?

Corrina: Absolutely. FAO, we recently published a normative practical guide to what a systems approach actually involves in practice. And we found learning from on the ground examples that there are six shifts that we need to make from a siloed approach to a systems approach.

The first is that mindset shift. It's the, it's the systems thinking. And so that we're shifting to mindsets that see systems.

The second is around knowledge. It's about data and evidence for systems change, making sure that the knowledge on those systems relationships is in the hands of policy makers and practitioners.

The third shift is what we call systems governance about joined up efforts across sectors, as opposed to fragmented institutions and decision making.

The fourth is systems doing, that's implementing actions that harness interconnections as opposed to isolated interventions.

Then the next one, the fifth is systems investment directing. It's about flexible, coordinating, long-term financing directed to transformation, as opposed to again, inflexible, uncoordinated short-term funding.

And the sixth is systems learning, a continuous learning adaptation because the system is always dynamic and always moving as opposed to very descriptive top-down action. 
These are the six practices or the elements of a systems approach. And so, we provide a very practical, easy to follow framework, which learns from both systems science, but also from actually what countries are doing on the ground.

Mark: And I know this, Corrina, this publication is available on the FAO website. We can link it in our podcast notes and we'll be sure to help circulate it so that everyone can have a look at that. Because I feel like having a guide or having a publication that you can always refer back to is something which is very, very helpful.

Now shifting gears a bit, let us talk about real world examples about the systems approach. Please share with us any example that, you know, where systems approach has made a real difference, maybe a case where policy or practice change because of this way of thinking. And maybe that could help as a good example to all the listeners as a case study.

Corrina: No, absolutely. And in the report, I just mentioned, we include around 20 real world examples. I have to say it's very inspiring, Mark, to learn what countries are doing because the real innovative leaders in food and agriculture and policy and practice are adopting a systems approach because they want to make a difference and they don't want to have unintended consequences across the system.

Let's look at Rwanda. They've done some very interesting work. I know that the Global Alliance for Improved Nutrition is, you've been involved in this work as well.  What Rwanda did, though, is to say, we know that we have many issues that we need to address. And so, when they developed the Fifth Strategic Plan for Agricultural Transformation, they had a whole range of different goals ranging from youth employment, economic transformation, private investment and nutrition, climate resilience.  So, developed a shared vision, which is systems thinking shift. But to do that, rather than doing the traditional planning process and just involving the agricultural sector, they brought in the agricultural sector working group, brought together different stakeholders from health, from trade, from infrastructure, environment, civil society, farmers' organizations, private sector, youth, women to consult so they could come up with a co-owned strategy, which enabled them to have a clear plan to achieving this vision. So, why is that a systems approach? It's the systems thinking part because it's thinking about going beyond the mandates and thinking about all of the different outcomes that agri-food systems can have.  But it's also about people. It's saying that we need systems governance. That means pulling people together from across the system and providing safe spaces for joint planning.
So, this is not rocket science. This is the shifting from a single sector approach to a multi-sector approach. Now, that's a planning process.

But let me give a shout out to some of my colleagues at FAO on the doing. Because really, it's when it comes to the doing, the systems doing, implementing actions that harness interconnections, which are really key. And my colleagues in our FAO office in Afghanistan, you can imagine an extremely difficult humanitarian situation.  And when they began their work to try and support the agricultural livelihoods of the communities in Afghanistan, they started in a traditional way of distributing certified wheat, seeds, and fertilizers to millions of farming households. This is traditional, very solid work that’s been done by FAO very well for many, many years. But they realized that if they, over the long term, if they were really building a system, an agri-food system for the long term, it's not good enough just to distribute wheat and fertilizer.

So, they began to invest in building a system that could function in and of itself to meet these multiple outcomes. That's about building private sector-led seed system that would enable that sector to survive over the longer term. Then they thought, hang on, we've got to think about nutrition.  We must think beyond wheat. Let's talk about seeds for vegetables. But you know what? We have to think about the environment too.  So, let's talk about how we're going to rehabilitate the irrigation systems and build rainwater harvesting, because you have to think about the climate change. So, let's talk about rainwater harvesting. Let's think about environmental sustainability.  So, build capacity to produce organic fertilizers. Let's make sure that we're making the connection with the people, the farmers. Let's make sure the farmers are trained.  Let's think about the gender issues by thinking about small-scale production for women farmers. So, it was focused on farmers, part of the chain, but it thought about all of how you actually build up a system that had been destroyed into a system that is sustainable, resilient, and efficient and inclusive to produce these multiple outcomes. And that was by having this long-term multi-outcome vision and thinking about all of the different connections that needed to be built from the beginning.  And in the world that we're in today, where there's a lot of conflict and fragility, thinking about how you actually build a system in that context is going to become more and more important. And that is a systems approach in action.

Mark: Thank you, Corrina. These are very good examples that you've shared, the work that has been done in Afghanistan. A shout out to your colleagues, you know, a big shout out to them for all the hard work. And also, Rwanda.  I mean, just the other day, I think it was last year that I was reading the strategy called PSTA5, and it's a very nice, very nice strategy. I actually went ahead and wrote something about it. So, thank you for sharing those examples.

Corinna, we want to help our listeners. How can they plug in? We want them to plug in and be champions of these systems approach, whether they are, let's say, researchers, entrepreneurs, policy practitioners, government officials. How can they start thinking and acting using a systems approach?

Corrina: I think the first point about how to really start is to start with where you are. This is not about inventing something entirely new and going off and doing something divorced from what we're already doing.  It's about doing what we're already doing and doing it better and improving our decision makers. To start with where you are, whether in research, whether you're trying to solve a problem as a policymaker, whether you're a practitioner, where you work in an international agency like me, and you start with where you are and the problems that you have. And you ask some deeper questions about what might be causing the problem and what might be the solution to that problem by looking at these different relationships.  Now, I'm trying to solve this issue. What might it be connected to that I haven't thought of? Now, as soon as you start to ask yourself questions, you realize that you can't answer them all yourself. So, you have to go and talk to people.  You have to go and find allies. You have to start engaging with the people who you think might be affecting and affected by or have a stake in the issue at hand for you. So, this can be fun because it's about meeting new people.
It's about talking to one person you've never spoken to before and finding allies and then identifying who has what role and responsibility. It's about taking responsibility for sure. 
So, start with where you are.

Ask some hard questions about the different relationships that might be affecting your ability to solve that problem. And go find those who you need to talk to and invest some time in finding allies, talking to people, some of whom you might think are your enemies. But go talk to them anyway and see how they understand the problem.  We make these assumptions about why other people are doing what they're doing. And if you ask them the questions, if you show them the curiosity, why are you doing this? What's the reason? I've heard a lot about why industry is doing what it's doing by asking questions. Do I agree with some of the things they're doing? Absolutely not.  But at least I understand some of that political economy, some of those power dynamics better, so that you can then be more strategic about the actions that you're taking and think, what do I need to do differently? But this, again, goes back to the mindset. It takes a certain mindset. So, one of the things that's really, really important is to build capacity and capabilities and reward people for thinking systemically.

It does take time. It does take humility to go and ask these questions. It does mean active listening. It means mediation and facilitation. These are often different from the leadership skills that are valued and rewarded. So, if you are a manager or a leader, make sure that these are valued, resourced and recognized in your team and build capacities for thinking in this different way.

Mark: I agree with you, Corrina. And these are very nice tips for leaders and managers across the sector. And I like particularly what you mentioned. And it makes this less intimidating, if I can say that. Start where you are. I think that's a very helpful first step.  And I must also add that every effort that people make, our stakeholders, everyone involved in the system, that every effort is not too small. And we do appreciate it. Yeah.

So, before we close, Corinna, you've really spoken about connections.  And I'm wondering, what's that one food that connects you most deeply in your own food story?

Please feel free to share. 
Corrina: Sure. Well, I mean, there are so many foods, so many memories. The one I'd like to share is a powerful memory for me. When my mother was alive, she used to make the most fantastic hummus. And this started my love of chickpeas, sometimes known as garbanzo beans.  I just love chickpeas. And I think they're a fantastic food. They're pretty affordable and storable. They're really delicious. They're really nutritious. They're really good for the soil. They're good for the climate. They can be grown in many locations. They're both traded across the world and locally produced.

They hold potential for economic development and for innovation. But right now, and the reason why they came right into my mind when you asked the question is because I believe that they have the potential to be a unifying food. It's a food that bridges cultures through a vast array of cuisines and dishes.  Of course, they're most important in the Middle East and South Asia. But if you take a country where I live now, in Italy, they're incredibly important in a range of traditional dishes in Italy and throughout Europe. I'm from the UK originally, and there are chickpea producers now.

There are those that have innovated how you produce chickpeas in a UK climate. And the supermarkets are full of hummus, though I have to say, I have to confess, I do prefer my mother's. And many new innovations of chickpea snacks and so on, of course, important in dishes in the continent of Africa and the continents of Africa and Latin America as well.

So, they're a regular food in my kitchen at home. And I really love making a simple curry and hummus. And honestly, my favorite, the quickest eating is open a can of chickpeas and rinse them and fry them with a bit of oil and garam masala and chili.  And I enjoy that very simple, very delicious. I'm really just very grateful for my mother for introducing me to chickpeas, but also a whole range of flavors. And I think that the fact I grew up around a whole range of flavors, which is a bit unusual in the north of England at that time, but it helped me develop a real curiosity about food and to look outward and instill a real belief that food is about families, households, friends, which in community about culture and looking at ourselves and our identities.

But it's also about looking outward. And that's not a contradiction to be local, to be global, to appreciate one's own culture as well as the cultures of others. And food can do that. And chickpeas are an example of a food that can do that.

Mark: I agree with you. And that's a very nice food story that you've shared. It actually reminds me of my grandma's smoky kitchen. And we had lots of, you know, various different cereals, some of which people call, they call them orphaned foods or neglected foods. But you know, right now, as we were speaking and just listening to you and enjoying the conversation, I was just sipping on my, you know, sipping my mango and pineapple juice.  I made it yesterday and it's so tasty. So, I think these can go very well with your chickpeas recipe. Someone should invite you to a cook show.  That would be good. Okay, Okay.  

So, thank you so much, Corrina, for such an enlightening discussion.

You've really helped us to see how systems thinking can turn complexity into opportunity. And if we have the courage to connect the dots, we are going to go very far and we're going to really transform our agri-food systems in a much better and bigger way.

Corrina: Thank you so much, Mark. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you today.

Mark: And to our listeners, thank you for listening into Bite The Talk. If you'd like to learn more about the systems approach in food and agriculture, check out FAO resources in the FAO website.

And we'll also be sure to link that in our podcast notes. And until next time, I've been your host, Mark Gachagua.

Let's keep connecting, collaborating, and always Biting The Talk.